I can't believe I am about to do this. I am going to bats for Joel Olsteen. The thinking moderate and Conservative Christian's favorite punching bag. (including myself many, many times) Before anyone or any Christian delivers their best diatribe, filled with all of your prayer-of-jabez-book-burning Rick-Warren-lovin'-rage ask yourself a few of these questions: When God gives you a good Job or a nice car, do you thank HIm for it? When you receive your paycheck and you get a bonus around Christmas-time, do you thank Him? Do you flinch when a rich buddy of yours at your Church says "I have been blessed."? Have you been Olsteen's Church? Have you been to Lakewood? I don't mean, -have you watched him on the tube? I mean have you sat down in that service, listened to those amazing musicians, witnessed the presence of God change lives, including your own, worshiped without inhibitions (that means silently OR hands lifted high), and listened to that smiling young fellow preach his sermon to a stadium full of minorities and poor people? I have. When Lakewood was in the poor neihborhood and when it moved out to 59. I am going to stand in the current here and say this; It aint all that bad people. The gospel is still the overall central message, inspite of your summarized notions of what you or I have seen, read or heard. This whole prosperity bit has got my cylinders firing hot lately. First of all, prosperity doesn't equal happiness. We all know this. The Love of God is what we need. We are ticked because he gets up and and tells people that God wants them to prosper. I get ticked because that notion has been such a sore spot for Christians in the past 30 years. -Tilton, Swaggard, Roberts. But take a look at most of Joel's congregation. So we are getting riled up because Joel gets up to people who are financially in debt, single mothers, people who have had the worst possible fiscal training and habits and tells them that God loves them and wants them to prosper. He tells them that God wants a better life for them. It isn't theologically deep but then again, last time I was there, half the people barley spoke English. He closes each sermon with an opportunity to "Make Jesus the Lord of your Life" Most of us have turned the channel by this point. I know I have from time to time myself. Also, lets be honest, how many times have you turned on old Olsteen and watched more than a minute and have NOT been uplifted, even slightly? I know pastors who know Joel personally. He is a good man from all accounts, and most will agree about his character and then go on to mercilessly criticize his sermons and message, secretly jealous of the incredible growth of that place, then use similar techniques to try and increase their own church attendance. They watch and listen and imitate then turn around and point a judgmental finger at him standing from their own bazillion-dollar Sanctuary filled with extremely wealthy congregates.
Joel may be guilty of what many high-profile preachers have, -vanity- but hello, you can't tell me that the Yin to Joel's Yang, Rich Warren doesn't enjoy the limelight from time to time. You can't tell me that he doesn't just smirk a tad when he hears his book outsold Olsteens 7 to 1. All in all I think both of them enjoy helping people more than their vanity, and both love the Lord and seek to honor Him and that is why both are still successful. I certainly fall more in line with the Warren camp (I flinch) but neither do I believe that he is the fearless leader of the "way it should be."
That being said, it should not be forgotten that Lakewood is a Church, and a good one. Joel pastors it and has done a pretty darn good job. What most of us don't see is the pre-sermon worship. The Gospel is laid out and delivered in song more in such a way that skeptic news reporters are impressed. I am not saying that I agree with Joel on everything but hey, who here has it all figured out? I wonder if what we are REALLY ticked about is the fact that some of this prosperity stuff seems to be working. People pray to be blessed and they are. Hey, I can't explain it away. Can you? Somebody's doing it and we pretty much have two choices in that arena. I am not sure I am that confident to say who is doing the gifting.
Another question. I give my compassion money every month. Is that not God helping someone across the ocean out of poverty because I believe that God doesn't want them to suffer or starve? Do we tell the people overseas that God wants them to remain poor and suffer becuase of it? Do we believe that? I might be destitute tomorrow. I might lose everything. I might be tortured and martyred. I might lose my wife, my sisters, my mom, dad and best friends. Then if I were struck with boils and cursed the day I was born, I hope I would still believe that God wanted to deliver me from my circumstances and give me something better, if not in this world then the world to come. More than that, I hope that I would say "though He slay me, yet will I love him."
I guess the reason for this here post is to shine a big fat light on my eyeball to search for any signs of a big fat beam. Mostly thinking out loud from the road here. Am I off? Help me out here. Hit me if I need it. I can take it. I do need some caffeine.
28 comments:
I like Joel Osteen.
Right on sister. One brave soul.
Agree? Disagreeeee????
I agree with what you are saying... I don't know the guy. I have never been to Lakewood, and I don't think I am going to hit you. I'm sure Joel does a ton of great things. And I think that God is blessing him... monetarily and probably in other ways. What was your take on Joyce Meyer's comment in that same article?
The whole "I believe that God wants to give us nice things" bit is a bit weird to me. I have always got the impression that Joel's "prosperity Lite" preaching was directed first and foremost at the persons esteem and self worth. THe place where the church WAS located was a pretty low-income, high-debt area. I truly believe that the message started out with the direct purpose of helping people change the way they thought about money and God's blessings. It sort of took off from there and like many things became, in my humble opinion, too emphasized because of its response and popularity. I would personally like to hear more doctrine, more meat coming from Joel. But then again, I am not the Holy Spirit so He will do and admonish where He sees fit. I think it is just as strange to say that God DOESN'T want you to have nice things or plenty to eat or to prosper. I know that He allows both. At times He causes both?... He wants no other Gods before Him thats for sure. He is jealous of our love and worship. When I have heard Joel, (aside from that book of his GEEZE) it has always been about picking yourself up with God's help and moving on.
Joyce has always been a bit different and more extreme. This statement from Joyce is so loaded weird. The residue of it dangles like a lingering, unpleasant flagilation.
I was reading a prominent theologian the other day and he said that "God created the universe because He thought that we should like it." In other words, He created it for us. We threw that away. I think approaching anything spiritually, initially for monetary gain is bull honkey. "I am going to pray because I believe that god wants me to have that gucci watch." Everyone should want to come to know God because we need Him not the watch or the house.
Believing that God wants to bless us or wants us to prosper is nothing new to Christianity or Judaism for that matter. I think the way she puts it is the most troubling. In fact it is downright irritating. But then again I am irritated by most "passion plays" put on by any number of churches each year. It cheapens it, which ironically is what she does to whatever message should be underlying any message about God blessing us monetarily.
You're right about most of us turning the channel before we hear his whole message. I got a bad taste in my mouth the time I listened to one of his sermons and he started saying that if you're a Christian you should be wealthy (not exactly his words, but that's what I remember). He went on and on about gaining riches until I couldn't take it anymore. It made me angry because I thought of all of my materially poor but spiritually wealthy friends and family members, and it sounded like he was saying that those people must not be good Christians since they are poor. In reality, my materially poor grandmother has the purest heart of anyone I know. She is such a strong Christian.
I think Jesus would tell us that we should pray for God to take away our DESIRE for that wealth, and then we wouldn't care if He made us rich or not. I think that's the whole problem...covetousness. It's not a sin to be wealthy, but it is a sin to concentrate on that wealth and covet other people's wealth.
He reminded me of those purple-haired people on PTL on TBN. I don't think his theology is nearly as twisted as theirs is (I won't go into detail, but I heard that Jan lady tell a disturbing story one day about how God gave her a fur coat...she actually cried when telling the story!). I like to think that I heard him on an off day. He and that church do some miraculous things in people's lives, and I pray that they will continue to do so.
Seth,
Are you saying that I should stop beating Joel Osteen in effigy every day at lunch? ;)
Here's my problem with the Osteen's and Meyer's prosperity gospel: it is patently false in the claim that coming to God will solve all your problems and fill all your (implied earthly) needs. God does bless physically and monetarily, but He also afflicts. When you preach the prosperity doctrine you do not preach the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but rather a skewed perspective of only a piece of the whole. In the end, it is not preaching the gospel of the Christ but of mammon.
I will never deny that Osteen and Lakewood do a lot for the community - and they have the bankrolling to do it and more. But, does that differentiate him from a simple "good person"? Not everything done in the name of Jehovah is of Jehovah. (Before you hate me for saying this, at least read my comment on Brant Hansen's post of the same topic.)
I still like Joel Osteen. But then I have listened to enough of his sermons to get the actual gist of what he is saying.
Same with Joyce Meyer. I have actually listened to her far more than I have Joel. She has helped more women than I can count with her no-nonsense-stop-your-complaining messages. She teaches a lot on SELF CONTROL and LOVE as being the bookends of the fruits of the spirit.
That's all I can say, I guess.
I hear you Euphrony. I acutally agree with you. I must have not made that clear enough in my last comment. The balence is skewed, for sure. BUT, I would rather him preach all positive than nothing at all. After plenty of years of strugle, I still believe that the word of God never goes out void. (I have another story to tell in my journey through some VERY interesting Churches...)
There are a bagazillion ministers that I disagree with theologically and personally. At the end of the day, as long as they do not preach hatred, bigotry, or a bald faced lie, I pray for unity in the body and let God deal with the rest. My tounge can get pretty forked at times and deal some nasty blows if I am not careful.
I liked what you said on Brant's blog on the subject. I also liked Brant's blog. Still do. I totally understand. I think if I hadn't witnessed such jealousy in the pastoral community towards Joel and hadn't attended his church a few times, I would be a little less merciful. I know people whose lives have been changed by attending Lakewood. They are passionate about the Savior and their faith is real. It is not only real it is contagious. Joel is just not as slick as a Rick Warren or a Ed Young Jr and he makes an easier target. Rick had certainly covered his bases. But make no mistake, Rick is a millionaire as well. He just doesn't drive the fancy car to prove it.
He is a good guy, I think the message is lopsided, but hey, I think he does more good, much more good at the end of the day then most, so I am going to lighten up on him. I still disagree with him but I am sure if you and I or anyone else here talked long enough we would eventually find something on which we disagree.
Just a quick question. When WAS the last time that you heard a sermon on how God was planning on afflicting you? Can't say that I have heard one of those and I have been in a Southern Baptist Church most of my life.
Also, I don't believe that God desires to afflict those who seek Him or Love Him. He certainly allows affliction and suffering but I don't think that it was or is God's original intent for man. Someday, there will be no more tears. We have this great hope. Christ was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities so by His Grace through faith we are off the hook in that arena, as far as God AFFLICTING ME for my sins. Again, I might suffer the consequences of my sins here and now, but they are because of my choices. I have been warned. So what about starvation, Cancer, death? All a product of the fall. Not God's doing. God still allows it, but He still ultimately desires all men to come unto Himself. Did God know it and therefore cause it... Well... that depends on what temperature Calvin you are.
When you tell your child to not touch the hot burner and they do, by you allowing it, are YOU afflicting them?
I might suffer the consequences of a poor and sinful choice, He might allow it, but as for God interveining through the miraculous, altering his natural order for the soul purpose of afflicting a Saint, that wrath was pretty much poored out on the Cross. So no, I don't believe Katrina was God's affliction on a sinful city. (I am not saying you do either, but I have met plenty who do believe it)
Fascinating subject, my friend.
You sound a little like me with this one -- knowing that the doctrinal balance is off, and being very uncomfortable with many of the ramifications of the teachings, but trying to extend genuine Grace and Love to all members of the Body of Christ, realizing that every one has its own part in the big picture.
I've spent many years pondering this stuff, and countless hours discussing it with different friends, and while I've reached some pretty firm theological positions as it relates to the teaching, I'm pretty mushy on exactly how it all fits together in the larger Body of Christ, and what I should do about it (if anything).
Please read 1 Timothy 6. I would quote it, but then I'd have to type out the entire thing. I don't want it to be taken out of context, because it pretty much speaks for itself, and pretty much sums up how I feel about the "prosperity gospel" vs. the real message of the Gospel and the Kingdom of God.
I first came to a saving knowledge of Jesus in a Charismatic church, which was during the early 80's when this "prosperity gospel" was really starting to gain a strong following, especially in the Charismatic church. But it was like a tug-of-war for the soul of that movement, because it was also during that time that a rebirth of genuine discipleship, and passionate pursuit of Jesus over everything this world has to offer was taking place in the same church.
I've seen first-hand many of the casualties of bad doctrine, and I still know of people whose walk with the Lord never recovered, because the message they were hearing in church and the "principles" they were being told governed the Kingdom of God never applied to their lives, and so they figured the problem must be them, and their lack of faith, or their sinfulness, or whatever it was that was causing them to go through hardships when those around them spoke of "living in victory" and "speaking good things into existence".
I had a good friend who was a serious and committed believer, who was a youth pastor at a big Charismatic church west of Houston years ago, and he told me "I just can't square what I'm hearing in church with what I know to be true. If a principle is really God's law and way of doing things, and we simply appropriate the power He has given us by believing and speaking it, then why doesn't a guy living in a mud hut in Africa have access to the same power? It only works in America". I'm sad to say that the years since then have not been kind to my friend, and he has mostly just given up on living for the Lord in any way.
Nonetheless, even if I don't like certain shaky doctrines that are taught, I guess that ultimately, I fear spending too much time preaching against something, or pointing out the error in what people are doing, when at least they are doing something. I've already got my own hands full just keeping my own house in order, and reaching out to those in my immediate neighborhood and local church body, without worrying about what is happening in other places, and other churches. I've grown to prefer an emphasis on personal discipleship, and faith in action through service to those in need, and passionate pursuit of the Lord -- not on what God can do to make my life easier or better.
That's why I say I'm mushy and noncommital in how to deal with folks like Joel Osteen -- they are really God's to deal with and not mine.
I love the desire to extend grace, but (and I think I'm getting to know you guys better) I'm sure you want to extend grace to people, not damaging ideas.
...and this idea, that God wants you to prosper in the American sense of "prosper", is a really damaging idea.
I've talked with a lot of missionaries about just how damaging this concept has been to the church outside the U.S. It's not just Joel, of course, it's largely TBN.
I'm familiar with Lakewood, and admire it for the reasons you articulate, Seth. (I even introduced concerts and stuff at Lakewood, when I lived in Houston, and was amazed even then at how they do things.)
Yes, the congregation is multi-ethnic, and largely not wealthy. TIME points out, too, that's usually the demo attracted by the prosperity message. I'm not sure any of this makes me feel any better.
Often (always?) damage is wrought by something that's partly true, yes -- then amplified and twisted to occupy a place it shouldn't occupy.
So, "no" to merciless, personal criticism, sure -- but yes, a hearty yes, to correction for teachers with HUGE flocks.
I can stand corrected, too, if I'm missing that the theme of "God wants you to have nice things" is, in fact, centrally located in "The Kingdom is here."
Best,
Brant
Seth
I hesitate to speak too strongly about a person, and I honestly do not mean to pick on Joel Osteen personally. He is simply representative. Where I constantly struggle is in the balance between these two scriptures:
John 17:20-22
2 John 9-11
Both were set down in ink by the same man, but the balance at times seems like a razor’s edge. Where does unity end? Where do we say you have gone too far? Where do we say I will still accept you because of the body we are a part of? When do the falsehoods (intentional or unintentional, it matters not for the result is the same in the deception of man) outweigh the TRUTH presented? Boy, do I struggle with this; but, I guess it is better to know that I at least struggle than to give in to lax acceptance of either stance. (Side story: I do not know if this is true or not, but I once heard that M.M. O’Hare’s (sp? – you know, the famous atheist) son was a gospel preacher. He freely admitted he only did it for the money, but still the gospel was heard.) I could also mention Philippians 1:15-18.
I do know and have heard sermons on suffering for Christ. Our current pulpit minister has talked about such on several occasions, I have taught it in classes myself, and I can tell you about one of our former ministers. He and his wife had serious problems getting pregnant. They finally tried in vitro, and became pregnant. Their son was born. I even got to visit them in the hospital when he was two days old. Later that same night, they noticed he was turning blue. After examination, he was rushed to Texas Children’s. You see, his heart was incompletely formed. He died two days later, at the age of a mere five days. I had lunch with him a month or so after this, and he confided in me that he honestly wanted to strangle the next person who told them it was all in God’s plan or that everything was going to be all right. But, he never left God’s side throughout. He, my friend, can preach on suffering in God’s plan.
Well said to both C-Hammer and Brant. Thanks to Lexie as well for being brave enough to go against the current. Thanks to Susanne and Euphrony for your thoughtful responses as well. I think there is an underlying issue that maybe you all can help me with.
Who's got it figured out? How should it be? What and who is the authority on how scripture is to be interpreted. I am for certain annoyed by the blatant courting of the down-trodden and poor that occurs in Joel's message but then again there was a time that I thought all the Purpose Driven Life books should all be burned. Battered and fried. I hated the idea that if I just followed these 30, 60 or however-many steps (I chunked it in the trash after day 7) I will find my "special purpose." (name that movie)
This whole philosophy that God has a "purpose" for your life, this notion has always irritated me. Of course God has a purpose for your life. D-U-H. What has irritated me is that I felt like Rick capitalized upon one of the greatest needs in the Human Heart. To know ones purpose. My modes for purpose change daily. Who knows what I will be doing next week or tomorrow for that matter? My purpose is to serve, here and now with whatever talents and gifts I have been given. My ultimate underlying purpose in life was exemplified when Jesus washed his disciples feet and said "do as I do."
Then I saw how book swept the nation and saw how it became this wierd uniting phenom that permeated the protestant Church. I lightened up. I doubt there has been a time in the Protestant Church's history that SOOO many Churches were studying the same darn thing at the same darn time. It baffled and humbled me.
I would still people prefer people to read Augustine, Merton, Lewis or Chesterton or OSWALD FRIGGIN CHAMBERS for that matter as a scriptural suppliment any day of the week over Rick Warren but again, I don't see the big picture. My point?
God uses Joel. He uses Lakewood. Does he need to be held accountable? Heck Yes. Does Sir Rick? Heck Yes as well. It is just that Sir Rick Warren falls a little closer to how we see things this week.
Sooo... before we criticize someone's Idea of Kingdom- Building we must have an idea of what that should look like right? Even TBN (I CAN'T BELIEVE I AM GOING TO BATS FOR TBN AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!) does some good for the Kingdom of God at the end of the day. I have seen all types of pastors from Ed Young Senior to Benny Henn to the Arch Diosese of NY City. I can't stand to hear 3 words out of Jan and Paul's mouths and I am pretty sure that in the Kingdom to come, we won't be surrounded by gold-guilded pianos and enourmously- pink-hair'd wives, but again, I think that the Holy Spirit works through them. WIth or without the 40 gallons of hairspray and books of pitiful prosperity/fa(ke)ith-healing doctrine. The Church is imperfect, THAT MUCH IS FOR SURE. It has always a been busy skewing things almost more than spreading the Gospel. Somehow the Holy Spirit works inspite of it and He manages to speak truth and change lives inspite of our stupidity.
So how will that Kingdom look? Wealthy? Middle Class? Socialist? Communist? Monarachy? I'd love to hear some thoughts.
Brant, you are right, I do believe in extending grace to people and I for sure will always rail against what I believe to be false and harmful doctrine or a harmful way of presenting things. But what is the best way of doing this? Who is the authority on prosperity? TIME magazine? Rick Warren? Jesse Duplantis????
In short, this is why I believe that things will move towards a unified Church. Joel has no one to correct him or to be accountable to and neither does Rick. He calls the shots. Period. The buck stops at his pen.
Orthodoxy is what we all are craving here. It is inevitible and necessary. As the world moves towards an anti-religion mindset Christians need more than ever to unite and get it together.
Mostly rambling here after a long day of playing, loading, unloading, and smiling. Keep helping me here. I am close to a break-through...
Brant, when were you in H-town??? Did you work for KSBJ??
Euphrony, just caught your last comment, I want to respond and I will tomorrow! wife is calling me to the slumber chamber. MUST...OBEY...CAN'T.....RE....SIST...
Anyway, thanks for the thoughts, will talk tomorrow.
Peace.
Seth, I was morning host on KSBJ back in the day for a couple years (like 2000-2001). I left to go do mainstream talk radio, which was/is a much, much better fit. There are some wonderful people at KSBJ -- truly -- and Lakewood, and Second Baptist, and TBN, KRBE, KPRC, the city gov't of Houston, the Houston Texans organization, the Harris County courts system, and on and on and so forth.
Really. Which is to say, "Yes, good things come from many places, some in the name of Jesus," and that's terrific. But I still think pastors should align their teachings with the Kingdom message. If they don't understand that message yet, perhaps they need to mature. We all do, and I actually kind of enjoy getting called on stuff, so I can grow up.
Not a Purpose-Driven guy, myself, but Warren opens his book with a line something like, "It's not about you." The very first line.
Yes, you have a purpose, but guess what...?
Solid.
Best,
Brant
When it comes to ministers, here is what I have learned to do over the years. Bear in mind, I am not a minister myself, only a lay person. So my responsibility differs from those of you within clergy circles, who may feel the need to be more outspoken on theological disagreements.
As a lay person, I usually will give a minister a couple of listens before I judge his intent. Of course, it only takes one listen on certain ministers, like the infamous Robert Tilton, to figure out a quack. If it walks like duck, sounds like a duck...well, you know. But on ministers like Joel and Joyce, who seem to have the best interests of Christians at heart, I will usually give them a chance to have their say rather than having a knee jerk reaction.
Then if I like them and if their teachings seem to have scriptural basis, I will learn from them what I can. I DO NOT ALWAYS AGREE WITH EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS. Why? Because they are human, imperfect beings like I am. They do not always get it right. It is my responsibility as a Christian to know my Bible and to have my own relationship with God. Also, not every teaching applies to me or meets me in the place where I am at the moment. If they are wrong on a point, I feel that God will deal with them eventually. I have listened to ministers who have said, "you know I used to teach such and so and God really dealt with me on that point." If a minister really loves God, God will eventually get through to him or her about most errors in his or her teachings. If a minister is a crook or liar, IT WILL COME OUT. Remember Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker. God does take care of these things. We just have to trust him.
I remember you on KSBJ, Brant! You helped me through my morning commute to work. :) I haven't been able to listen to the radio as much since I had my kids, so I really miss that hour of KSBJ every morning. What a way to get the day started off right. I enjoy reading your blog, and I hope you and your family are doing well in Florida!
I'm really enjoying reading everyone's take on this subject. Keep those posts coming!
Hey, thanks Susanne!
Lexie, I appreciate your graceful attitude. My father is a minister, my brother is a minister, and I've been a full-time church minister as well. I'm not one to entertain too-lofty expectations for our church leaders.
I tend to think of it this way: If Joel were to preach next week on how the world is going to hate you, just as it hated Jesus, would that be shocking?
How about if he preached about how Jesus himself, showing us the Kingdom life, was homeless? Would that be kinda shocking?
There are dozens of possible themes here, that I suspect *would* be bracing to the community, like, "Hey! What's up with HIM all of a sudden?"
It's not just Joel, at all. There are some congregations I know who would be shocked if the minister, after a career of moralizing, suddenly started preaching about Jesus's warnings to those judging others.
Just as a general rule, I think something's out of whack, if a preacher has been at it for awhile, but hearing him teach the actual teachings of Jesus would send the congregation wondering, "What happened?"
Not a knee-jerk reaction, or a condemnation, just correction.
(Sorry, Seth, for commenting at length on your blog. I try to be concise, but fail when I'm in a hurry...)
Brant
Sorry on the re-read, it sounded like I am now and forever a hater of Rick Warren. I am not. As a matter of fact, I have hardly heard 3 words out of Rick's mouth lately that isn't solid gold in my opinion. From his Larry King interview, the dateline specials to the quote in time. My opinion has changed from where it was. It wasn't so hot in the beginning, I'll admit. It was mostly a knee-jerk reaction from forced trips to Christian Book Stores where his book might as well have been a lost Gospel.
About Joel, I should summarize. I don't agree with all of Joel's prosperity Gospel. It is skewed in my opinion. However, because it is about money it, or he makes an easy target for reprimand. We should communicate our disagreements with Joel and hardcore-advocates for an American-style prosperity Gospel. But what about other points of disagreement that "some" might have with many preachers? What about those pastors that are hardcore 5-point Calvinists? (I know some people that read here are Calvinists so I REALLY mean no offense) There are plenty who wonder if the theology of 5-pointers has more far-reaching bad consequences in God's Kingdom than Joel's prosperity teaching...namely all of my Roman Catholic friends. (Which is why some say true 5-pointers are a dying breed.)
I guess what I am trying to do myself here is what you are suggesting- to mature. You can't grow and mature if you do not think you can and for me that means stepping back and re-examining my judgments. I guess mostly the blog is directed towards myself. It is kind of like that time when I went to a church where there was this family who wanted the music minister out. They griped and griped and when it came time to vote him out, all they could do is say good things about him. I shouldn't fear Karma I guess. Although there is that verse about being judged how you judge others...
Thanks to everyone for pushing me on this one.
Brant, I am darn near offended that you are apologizing for commenting too much. Comment away and often.
Euphrony, Thanks for those verses. The prayer in the Garden is breathtaking. Only God could speak it. There is a fine line between just admonishment and Legalism.
One of the reasons that I do value the Creeds. There is a common ground found in them that is a beautiful summary of beliefs, all scriptural. For me, I view most scripture through the lens of the Nicene Creed and the Apostle's Creed. (little "c" catholic - or - "the whole Church") Incidentally, we have been sing "One in the The Spirit" at all the churches, coffee shops, and colleges we hit. People sing with more passion and emotion than any other praise song we sing.
After a long day of travel, I get back to read a million more comments, and not a one of them has answered Seth's what movie challange. "special purpose" - Steve Martin in The Jerk. Excellent.
Seth, you are right that it is a razor's edge at times between legalism and just admonishment. Admonishment has a place and purpose in the church, one which is too often lost as we (Americans?) develope a live and let live attitude.
Brant, my wife, Erin, actually worked at KSBJ the same time you were there. She worked the Sunday night show with Susanne and Saturday nights some as well. I think she said she only met you once or twice, as she was only there weekends.
Lexie, I'm sorry but you hit a push-button for me. You are not laity. The distinction between laity and clergy is the biggest load of hogwash to come down the Christian turnpike since gnosticism. Read 1 Peter 2:4-10. We all are a royal priesthood. The distinction of clergy and laity only seems (at least to me) to emphasis an elite class based on education/occupation while simultaneously giving the non-elite class a hand-made excuse for inaction or bad action. I know, not everyone considers it this way, and may see it as a mere occupational distinction (maybe that is how you see it), but I know plenty who see it as how I have described. Not meaning to jump all over you for using that, and you had some really good words to say, but that was my knee-jerk reaction.
Euphrony, on a related note (to clergy and laity) did you know Southern Baptists no longer believe in the priesthood of a believer? In the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 they changed it from "the priesthood of a believer" to "the priesthood of believers", with the change to plural sending a deliberate message.
Stephen,
Boy, that is a hair's difference. Reading the 2000 BFM and comparing it to the 1963 BFM, it almost looks like they are simply referencing and reiterating the 1963 in the 2000. But, on such hairline differences many interpretations can arise. I won't pretend to know if there is intent in the change or if it was intended to say the same thing. Seth, you recently left working at a Baptist church to hit the road - what say you? How does it look in the pews and the pulpit? From my experience, it matters not how any specific church stands on this issue, you'll still have a large segment of the church population that does nothing because its "not my job, we have a paid staff for that".
There is actually quite a bit of debate that has been happening over that change, from what I've read.
I hadn't heard that Stephen. That is pretty amusing. Actually, if one were to consider the BFM as the Creed that it is and tries not to be, the difference is Huge.
Euphrony, I have a blog coming on that subject. We recently played at Jeremy Camp's home Church where his father Tom Camp is the Pastor. It was a pretty amazing Church. It is a coffee shop/Church in an inner-city that used to be a strip club. The people that go there are some of the saltiest, interesting people I have met. I'll post in a few on it.
Honestly, I hardly know a single Baptist below the age of 40 who has actually read the BFM. That includes ministers. I just skimmed it. thanks for the link.
The BFM has always perplexed me, in general, because of the Nature of the "Southern Baptist Churches" Autonomy. What IS writtin has never perplexed me, I acutally love most of it. Its function and power is enigmatic. I seems to render itself powerless.
Euphrony,
I almost had a knee jerk reaction to your comments, ha! But you know what? It really isn't worth it. You are my brother (or sister, I don't know who you are yet, and so don't know which) in Christ and you are just trying to do what is right in the sight of the Lord.
I suppose I should explain myself a bit more. In my twenties, I was so prone to jumping on every band wagon, criticizing this or that minister. And many times I ended up being embarrassed when I found out there was more to the story. So this is why I personally am very careful about criticizing ministers unless they are obvious charlatans. The reason I brought up being a lay person is because I know that there are those in the clergy who truly feel it is their calling to keep other Christian leaders in line. And even though I know I am a child of the King, a part of the royal priesthood, I just don't feel it is my place to do it.
That is not a pointed comment toward anyone or a suggestion that anyone here should act the same way. It is just my feeling within myself.
Lexie,
Don't worry about the misplaced knee-jerk reaction. I carry around a little extra padding just for such occassions (a man can't be too careful, ya know).
Some people define lay and clergy in slightly different manners. It is the traditional, and most common, sense of the relationship that riles me. From you're breif talk, you seem to have a slightly different definition. Again, not jumping all over anyone here (not even the Osteen's and others).
I don't know how I feel about the whole "don't critcize 'God's annointed business"
I heard a preacher preach on this lately but had a hard time swallowing it because, of course, it was coming from a preacher. It only wanted me to scrutinize more and dig a little deeper.
If a preacher is getting out of line like Joel or Joyce Meyers, then they should hear it from someone. Hopefully they will hear it in a peaceful and concerned way rather than from the two muppet critics or the peanut gallery nay-sayers.
People are afraid to give their opinions anymore because they know that powerful people can lash out. It is dangerous to be in a place where you think that you can do no wrong. I don't think Joel is there, yet. I think he has shown some times in the past where he has admitted to being wrong about things or not being as strong as he should about certain issues. The whole apology letter he wrote to his church memebers over the Larry King interview is a good example. It seemed like a sincere exeptance of a admonishment from his Church.
But, he may not be to far from it either.
As far as the pastoral thing goes, I think it is okay as long as it is done in Love and with Grace. Just do it the way that you would want someone to do it for you. Not gossipy, not spiteful or insensitive, but with concern. If it is done in THAT spirit then it just might be the Holy Spirit prompting rather than an internal urge to correct or out of arrogance or for some purpose of exerting control or whatever. I have seen it done that way (from everyday laity to pastor) and I have seen it work.
Okay, this shows you my knee jerk problem.
It was ANONYMOUS's (Brant's) post that stirred my blood (for a moment only!) not Euphrony's. Sorry to all.
Drat. Do you need any more proof of why it is best for me to keep my mouth shut when it comes to my fellow believers? :)
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